We can disagree without resorting to rash judgements of other people’s characters.
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What is worse:
- rash judgement of someone? (where I believe the harshness is actually subjective).
- or non-consensually forcing your opinion/action on someone?
Because it is the moderators that have done the second to us by closing and/or making subreddit read-only, and evasives are given when people are asking to hand off the moderation mantle to someone else.
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I’ve never started a subreddit but I imagine it’s pretty easy. So far there are enough people deploring the closure of /r/haskell that I don’t understand why one of them doesn’t just start /r/haskell2, /r/haskellopen, /r/haskellnew or something. If it would be such a benefit to the community then please help the community and just do it!
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Yes, it’s trivial to create a new subreddit, and there is already an alternative one that remains open, /r/haskellquestions, although it’s mostly dedicated to questions as the name hints.
However, as I said on an earlier post, the problem is that the name is not /r/haskell, which means it’s not easily discoverable; any newcomer isn’t going to randomly guess that since /r/haskell is closed they should navigate to /r/haskellnew. Similarly, existing users subscribed to /r/haskell aren’t notified either that they can migrate to a new subreddit should they wish to do so.
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You’re oversimplifying.
r/haskell was a platform with high engagement and activity. No alternative has been proposed in a timely manner to organize a community move. Now we have a half-dead fediverse, some people being more active on discourse and others just deeply frustrated about how this was handled.
No, we’re not. This has caused real damage. You can see it from the responses here and on the reddit thread.
Actions have consequences. This one was clearly controversial.
I really don’t care about reddit. But I care about engagement. And we lost a big chunk of it for a petty reason.
Even if we were to re-open the existing sub, the damage has been done. It won’t be like it was before. If a new sub opens, it has to build up for years as well.
Was it really worth it?
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…and it was made by Reddit-the-management:
Thank you for pointing that out. I think there’s plenty in the Haskell community-at-large who aren’t great users of reddit, so won’t feel greatly affected by whatever’s going on.
I went to reddit.com and typed ‘haskell’ in the search bar. (Didn’t even need a wildcard.) Immediately I see 5 haskell sub-whatevers. What could be significantly more easily discoverable? (BTW apart from r/haskell, looks like those other subs could do with moderators to keep them on topic.) At the top of r/haskell, there’s an announcement it’ll remain read only. Presumably if some folks feel sufficiently motivated to set up and moderate r/haskellnew, there could be an announcement to redirect from r/haskell.
If you’re trying to promote more engagement, I suggest this is an opportunity for a haskell(new) reddit not like it was before. If it merely continues under another name, I’ll continue to give it a wide berth. There’s plenty other places I feel more appropriately engaged.
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I think generally, if you didn’t find r/haskell engaging, that’s reflection of you and not the subreddit? Meaning that means you didn’t use it so ofc you aren’t affected by the shutdown.
It’s pretty unequivocal that r/haskell was a sizable Haskell forum and that it was many people’s primary Haskell community.
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Yes. I constructed an argument against the overly dramatic characterization of the event as “a major blow to the whole community”, and a simple (perhaps simplistic) argument is sufficient for this purpose. I am yet to be convinced why this is supposedly a major blow rather than a minor inconvenience.
What real damage? What I can see from the responses is that people like to complain about minor inconveniences. Sometimes I find myself in this state of mind, and it helps a lot to take a walk outside and listen to the birds sing. The world is still there. I don’t want this to sound condescending, but it really does help to do that to calibrate your sense of “real damage”.
Even back at your computer screen you will find that Haskell is also still there, and even the website in question is still there in read-only mode. There has been close to no damage.
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Odd, meanwhile r/rust is still active and lively. It seems they got their priorities right.
Point me to the reddit alternative. Discourse is not it, fediverse is not it. r/haskell was way bigger than the discourse community.
It doesn’t need more specific evidence other than: you closed one of the biggest haskell communities without organizing a proper alternative.
I find it often useful to listen to critical voices and seeming minorities to calibrate the impact of my decisions.
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Why not? What would a proper alternative look like in your opinion?
Well, that means you might want to listen to me? I am not behind any of the decisions that led to this conversation. I count myself as one of the critical voices, and my criticism concerns the use of rhetoric such as “major blow”, “whole community”, and “real damage”.
fwiw, r/haskell was the only way I chatted with Haskellers online for over a decade (outside github issues I guess) and I’m guessing I’m not the only one. I have many bookmarks to r/haskell threads in my archives. Both posts by others and questions I asked.
I’ve been on many forums for many interests over the years. And I’ve seen them die too. Acting like their deaths aren’t important or impactful on their communities because the people who used them still exist isn’t an especially cogent argument.
It sounds to me the crux of this conversation is direction. Do we need to create a new sub? Or should we who wish to use reddit for Haskell hold out a bit in hopes that the name will no longer be squatted? Because there is loss here. People surely have posts they would have posted on Reddit (I know I do - I posted here instead). There are r/haskellers who aren’t on discourse who are missing out. And maybe they’d have something to add to the community if not for this shutdown.
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I suggest to involve the Haskell Foundation (@david-christiansen) on this matter as a mediator. They could talk to the decision makers, the critics, to haskell.org, etc. …purely in a moderating/supporting capacity. Maybe we can resolve this easily.
If not, users who wish to create a new community might get broader support through this channel.
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the problem is that the name is not /r/haskell, which means it’s not easily discoverable
I think a brief PR campaign would solve that problem.
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surely r/haskell could sticky a post directing people to the new sub if that’s how the cards fall
I doubt the current moderators would agree to that. They are protesting against Reddit, after all.
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I think it would be added to the community page, because it would be part of the community, probably tweet about it (although Twitter has gone closed now!). Did you have any other form of promotion in mind?
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I guess in that case people can just post outlinks to the new sub in the various stickied threads (since comments still work).
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Did some research:
Looks like the redditrequest process comes into play at 30 days of inactivity. Given the original “going dark” post was 19 days ago (and it has been either dark or RO since then), in 11 days r/haskell should be eligible to be opened administratively. So a new sub isn’t the best way forward. r/haskell will inevitably be coming back so long as people use the processes available to them.
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